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Hi,
I have a 92 Fourtrak 2.8 TDX with leaf springs all round.
I have been told that if i remove both the panhard rod and anti-roll bar this will greatly improve the articulation when im offroad...
Can anyone tell me how much difference this will make and if it is safe/legal to do so.
Thanks!
do it
I kept on the anti roll bar but removed panard rod, bbbiiiggg difference but to be honest my point of view is that the panard rod is actually dangerous and useless, cos when you fit new/better springs it is almost impossible to get the axle lined back up correctly,it seriously pulls the axle across which i believe to be a design fault, the articulation increase is better especially when you start playing with the suspension, but you also have to drive a bit more accordingly and for gods sake watch your insurance - any mods on a vehicle must be noted unless your with NFU - they couldnt care less what you do until you fiddle with engine or gearing!!
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Thanks for the reply. Will
Thanks for the reply.
Will it pass the MOT if i remove them both?
ai
Yep it will pass, if its not fitted then they cant moan about it, or say hmmm you need new bushes etc etc etc
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Cool... next question
Cool... next question is...
Which one is the panhard rod? I know which is the anti-roll bar cos i took it off when i had a sporty, but can you give me any ideas what to look for to find the panhard rod?
Thanks for all your help mate!
bent bar
Its the bent looking one that fixes at an angle from the offside of the chassis behind the wheel down to the nearside of the axle by the swivel ball, just two nuts and bushes - should pop off fairly easy.
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Mine havent been fitted for
Mine havent been fitted for about 10 years. I dont know about the legality of it in the UK.
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Growing old is compulsary, growing up isnt.
MUD MAKES EXCELLENT TOOTHPASTE.
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Please visit http://groups.msn.com/AussieDaihatsuRocky/_whatsnew.msnw
All views and advice offered are my own, from my ow
Panhard Rod
Hi.
I have been following this thread for some time, other posts also re this subject.
I have a '91 leaf sprung Fourtrak, fitted with replacement springs, yes they do pull to one side of the hangers, (front axle) in fact they are bearing against the spring hangers, been taken of and the bushes replaced with another brand of poly bushes, still the same. Considered removal of the panhard rod as it would also thereticaly give me more suspension travel, allow the springs to centralise. So i spoke to the three local MOT testing stations and also posted on the MOT testers site, and the answer was the truck would fail it test as a suspension component was missing.
The best answer to the problem was from the guy who has tested my truck for the last few years re the Panhard Rod pulling the springs across the bushes , was to get a coded welder, (a pro with paper work) to weld in a piece to lengthen the rod, not to DIY it ,as it is a saftey critical item. The tester could not understand why the replacement springs supposed to be standard had also given the truck a suspension lift, only giving the truck 2" of travel on the rear axle before the shocks bottomed out (Monroe Gas shocks).
Edward (ews) '92 Fourtrak 2.8 TDX
New springs will offten sit
New springs will offten sit higher just couse they are new and less tired. Also did you fit the gas shocks at the same time? Positive presure type gas shocks will also add hight, especially when new. Esiest answer to this is reweld the shock top mount slightly lower. This will alow more travel befor bottoming out. Bottoming out shocks on a regular basis is not good, as sooner or latter the shock will break. Also of course you lose traction off road as thenwheel does not drop as fare into a hole as it might. This can also promote roll overs. The longer panhard rod sounds very sensible. Getting hte right length would be the trick.
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
pain in the ard rod
I personally think its not required, if my truck fails the mot then so be it, ill refit, ive done roughly 8000 miles without one and not a problem, if i refit it even with standard shackles and replacement springs it pulls the front axle across pulling the alignment out from the rear axle, it pulls hard on the chassis (front spring hangers) making the spring not work correctly as a shock absorber because its pulled solid against metal, its pulling at an angle on the u bolts, its gonna prematuarly wear out any new bushes fitted on the panhard rod, leaf springs and chassis bushes for the shackles, youll get tyre wear/scrubbing etc etc, i still kept the anti roll bar on because thats not an issue but this said item really has not been thought out by daihatsu in the first place is my mechanical opinion, you can lengthen it but that does not 100 % work out because of the angles it runs at, i wonder what daihatsu's original suspension springs and ride heights were like back in the day?? cos this just doesnt work out........
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I'd hazzard a guess that it
I'd hazzard a guess that it is an 'add on' done by Daihatsu to meet some new EU law for new vahicles...
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
Removing Panhard
Removing the panhard rod is both illegal and dangerous for road use, this is the only lateral location for the rear axle, lifted suspensions should have longer panhard rods fitted to maintain the correct axle location.
MOT testers have recently been issued with an advisory notice to fail all 4X4's with the panhard rod removed as this is classified as a "critical component", as are all suspension, steering, and brake items, this is due to the increasing popularity of the mod. Any vehicle submitted for test should be declined, citing the vehicle as in a dangerous condition for testing, and the appropriate notice issued.
Insurance issues also arise, UK vehicles were type approved with panhards fitted, if they are removed they are not UK legal, also any modifications should be declared to your insurers, both these mean your insurance is invalid.
Two options exist, one is to drive your vehicle to an off road site with the panhard fitted, remove it, drive off road, then refit it before driving on the road. Fit an electrically disconecting type as fitted to Nissan Patrols, these can be easily adapted for fitment on a Daihatsu.
Please remenber that driving green lanes requires vehicles to be road legal, this means taxed, MOT'd, insured, and with the panhard rod fitted.
I hope this clarifies the legal position for these types of modifications.
Have to say all of the above
Have to say all of the above about legality sounds about right (especially the bit about telling your insurer, lets face it they will get out of paying up if you have a smash any way they can).
Having said that I didn't have either in my F80 for several years. It made little to no diffrence that I could notice on the road, and was definatly better off. If the car is cart sprung then the springs should locate the axle quite well enough on their own. All series Landrovers, F20/50's and many other older 4x4's were quite happy without them. They are only added to make on road handeling better. If you want a car that 'handles' bye a sports car. Of course a properly fitted panard rod shouldn't affect axle articulation too much, as it swings with the axle one way, and the axle pivots around the end of the rod the other way. The anti roll bar is the real culprit, as stopping axle articulation is exactly what it is designed to do. Not saying take them off or leave them, just giving you some more to think about...
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
Panhard Rod Removal
Having contacted several MOT testers, they have nearly all seen the advisory notice, but prior to this being issued, they have all seen vehicles with panhards removed.
Each and every vehicle has been refused a test as the vehicle has a critical component missing, this leaves obvious problems for testers performing such things as brake tests. Other issues for testers are that their insurance would be invalid as they have driven a vehicle, knowingly, with a defective critical component missing, as this is easily visible, and their testing status would be removed by VOSA.
Items classed as critical components are brakes, suspension, and steering.
DANGER .... don't do it on Independents (coil springs)
I presently have the back end of an Indy stripped down for painting. Without the Panhard rod, the rear axle can easily be moved sideways under moderate hand pressure.
The anti-roll bar alone is not man enough to resist the sideways forces experienced with the vehicle in motion.
cross opinions
He is talking about leaf springs all round guys... if it was coils then yes it would be very silly to remove it, and removing the panard rod DOES pass the mot, things must vary a little bit here and there in this country....
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Not Cross Opinions
Well aware he is talking about leaf springs, these are made in several differing types, early leaf's were designed to accept the lateral loadings placed upon them, this is why earlier leaf sprung models had no panhard rod fitted.
Later leaf sprung models of all vehicles had to meet specific requirements, the springs were made to accept much higher thrust loads (up and down) but not lateral loadings (sideways loadings) due to their costs of manufacture. Panhard rods serve many other purposes, although too complex a subject for these forums; they allow shorter braking distances, and greatly reduce on the limit body roll; helping prevent vehicles rolling.
While i accept your point generally about if it is not fitted, it cannot be tested, is acceptable in many areas, this does not apply to items labelled "critical components", these include brakes, steering, and suspension.
If your vehicle has passed an MOT with the panhard rod removed, you are lucky; the system is as we know, not perfect, but legally it should have failed.
I hope this gives some clarification.
not a perfect system
Too true mot testers do vary around the place so its not the same for everyone, when it comes to mods on a vehicle that individual MUST be sensible in what they are doing and who they have told to be totally road legit. So far though removal of said item has not caused a problem, but if i was to personally put it back on even with original shackles it still would not fit nicely because replacement springs to the geometry of daihatsu's axle and chassis are so far out, tremendous strain is put on bushes, spring hangers and shackles to be pulled one sided i believe that to be dangerous in itself and no nothing is bent or twisted its just as it is how it left the factory... interesting..anyway assassin, just out of interest how do you know what you know???
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Knowledge
Many mechanical engineering qualifications, as well as a full apprenticeship, degree, and many years working in all areas of mechanical engineering.
Spent many years racing, as well as off roading; always built my own vehicles, and have worked on many projects, including bio fuels since 1993, for various professional bodies i am a member of. Worked on vehicles for several leading modification companies, right up to formula 1 engines, designed most aspects of car systems including suspension for much more severe off roading than your average vehicle.
One of the greatest aspects of management is that not only can i tell them what to do, but often i show them; it usually raises a few eyebrows when you do what employees say cannot be done.
wow
That is a very impresive automotive history you have there, no wonder you know so much!!
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.... just making a point, guys
.... that it would be very stupid indeed to remove the panhard rod on an Indy, in case that someone hadn't noticed the leaf spring bit.
well its MOT time
My truck had the mot on saturday and i thought id update anyone on this leaf spring panhard rod business, although it failed on minor little silly things like a bulb and a bit of welding - nothing drastic (typical wheel arches), i had no comment from the guy about a panhard rod missing, with my suspension/brake pipe mods nothing at all, he was happy with everything cos he could see its a pretty well looked after machine, so idont know what to say and its not an issue with my insurance company either so.........next year maybe?????
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